SNES vs Genesis Sound Chip
- Thread starter DCurrent
- Start date
stin said:
When I say the SNES had some boneheaded engineering, I'm not calling it a bad system. Just the opposite - it was a neat little console and did its job (taking back Sega's market share gains and making money) quite well. Along the way it gave us a ton of great games that stand the test of time. Technically speaking it had some pretty amazing capabilities that even the almighty Neo-Geo couldn't replicate. two big ones come to mind:
- "Mode 7" - Yes "Mode 7" is way over-mentioned, to the point it's become a misnomer for any landscape effect. And yes, it's nothing more than a scaling/rotating tile layer with raster control. Yet you can't deny it's an impressive looking effect to this day. You needed some truly masterful programing skills to even partially approximate it on the Genesis. Given the Neo's complete lack of tile layers, it may not be able to manage an approximation at all, and AFAIK nobody ever bothered trying.
- Alpha Blending - This is one of the SNES oft overlooked capabilities and IMO it's by far the most impressive. Sure, it's limited to one layer at a time, but it's still huge because nothing else could do it. The closest you could come was very carefully designing your colors and switching palettes or toggling the darken/lighten with raster interrupts (Sonic's water levels). The Neo can't even do that, so they just flashed everything and called it a day. True real-time blending (see Super Punch Out) is simply not possible on any other console hardware of the day, no matter how good you are.
I could go on, but basically, the SNES graphics suite really was very well designed. They also designed the pinout for support chips, so it was much easier (i.e. less expensive) for devs to add onboard enhancement chips for the SNES cartridges than the Genny. That's pretty forward thinking. We've already talked about how the sound design was ahead of its time (maybe too much). So much potential...
...then they bottlenecked the living crap out of it with that pathetically slow custom 6502 CPU and forced sound filters. Just to be fair, the SNES CPU can perform a lot of operations in fewer cycles than Gen's 68000, but not nearly enough to make up for the speed gulf. Worse - the 6502 is't just slow. It's difficult to program, and Nintendo didn't provide good documentation until late in the system's life. Really a stupid decision all around, mostly due to office politics you can read quite a lot about elsewhere. Boy did it cost them. That one mistake meant the Genesis was the better machine for action games, and Sega's marketing team milked it for every drop. SNES did ultimately win the war, but Sega hang around and put up a fight for years.
If I could go back in time and fix the SNES, I'd make the following changes. Nothing big, just a few simple tweaks. My point isn't to build some uber machine, but something with minimal changes that is cost-effective for its day.
- Drop in a 68000 clocked at 10-12Mhz, tweak the data bus, and call it a day. Not only is it fast, cheap, and readily available, but all the third parties that were developing for Sega can easily switch over.
- Optionally disable sound filter. It's a 1 bit switch, the end.
- Add hardware scaling using the money I saved on CPU. Sprites are sprites and always have their own attributes, so doing this at the sprite level won't really work, and it would be too expensive to set up a tiled sprite system like Neo-Geo has.
Instead, I would take advantage of drawing order IDs. I'd add an 8bit register of 8bit values (256[0-256]). ID = drawing layer, value = sprite size (drawing layer[sprite size]), with 128 = 100% size. Anything with a drawing order ID matched to the register key is drawn with the key's scale value. From the developer's view, you just arrange your drawing order in combination with the scale registers, and you have real time scaling from 0 to 200%. Since it's two 8 bit numerics, one 16 bit word will carry both, so adjusting a scale value is a single bus cycle.
These changes would produce a system of the same net cost that would blow the Genesis away in all aspects and even hold its own with Neo-Geo out of the box.
But hindsight is always 20/20...
DC
oldyz
Well-known member
i think this video needs to be blown up & seen in this occasion...zanac said:
Interesting , but i wonder if all that was necessary at all...it is fun to watch nonetheless.
A lot of the tunes that he fooled around with remind me of the xmen games.... & they pulled it of without such shenanigans - then again the whole point is that he takes the console & makes his own Synth with it....
stin
Dammit , once again you have reminded me that i HAVE to play Turrican - i'm wondering a few things....
those youtube videos might not do the real sound any favors -
i don't think emulation is going to cut it
Would the music work different in newer SNES models (luckily i have the original tho)
WOuld the music be affected if i use a flash cart or re-pro?
are there are any flash cartridges that feature a State-save option -- i am a hardcore player @ heart , but time flies at least i have the rule that i only save after level completion & only if i don't lose any lives.
Also, did you ever play those Dolby Snes Games with an actual dolby system?
Damon Caskey
Sounds crazy & it goes against my new principles & attitude towards game consoles, but it would be nice to to have a "Super Duper NES" with those issues fixed.
Then again, i think now-days a good emulation with those changes or even adjustable parameters its possible, is it not?
& last , no one remembers that Genesis visual effect? -
oldyz,
I can assure you, that that YouTube video I posted is 100% authentic.
My cartridge was exactly that.
No, I didn't have a dolby system, but a 2.1
Today 's emulators are real simulators that reproduce 100% of the hardware of the two machines.
Genesis Plus GX and Snes9x.
Damon Caskey,
I believe that here, it's not about who, between the two, on paper was the best as hardware, but how the programmers and the developers, managed to bring out game jewels.
Genesis did not have Mode7, but thanks to their skills and knowledge of Motorola, they brought you out Multi-Parallax, Multi-sprite, which a Snes dreamed of, management of the software-scaler, which did not disfigure with the hardware of the Snes.
An example is a Gunstar Heroes of a Treasure, or a Rocket Knight of a Konami, or even a Ranger-X of a SEGA, which could also simulate alpha blending, with a software technique, which brought the color palette to screen up to 100 simultaneously. (the color limit on the screen, on the Genesis was 64)
If we want to make a more modern comparison, it is like saying who was the best between a hardware of a Dreamcast and that of a PS2.
On paper, the PS2 won, but in reality, no, in the action-arcade, the Dreamcast was unbeatable, simply because that machine was designed as a CoinOp and was much easier and simpler to program.
And this made a big contribution, as it was possible to overcome the technical limits in hardware, the hardware was squeezed immediately.
The problem with young people, in my opinion, is that they only grew up with a Super Mario Bros.
----
This is the real Remake of a Chip called Paula.
And the author is the one who made Factor5 famous.
Not an idiotic boy, who likes to spoil with his "remix" the most beautiful songs that history has given us.
[YouTube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xAD9qf-M_WQ[/YouTube]
I can assure you, that that YouTube video I posted is 100% authentic.
My cartridge was exactly that.
No, I didn't have a dolby system, but a 2.1
Today 's emulators are real simulators that reproduce 100% of the hardware of the two machines.
Genesis Plus GX and Snes9x.
Damon Caskey,
I believe that here, it's not about who, between the two, on paper was the best as hardware, but how the programmers and the developers, managed to bring out game jewels.
Genesis did not have Mode7, but thanks to their skills and knowledge of Motorola, they brought you out Multi-Parallax, Multi-sprite, which a Snes dreamed of, management of the software-scaler, which did not disfigure with the hardware of the Snes.
An example is a Gunstar Heroes of a Treasure, or a Rocket Knight of a Konami, or even a Ranger-X of a SEGA, which could also simulate alpha blending, with a software technique, which brought the color palette to screen up to 100 simultaneously. (the color limit on the screen, on the Genesis was 64)
If we want to make a more modern comparison, it is like saying who was the best between a hardware of a Dreamcast and that of a PS2.
On paper, the PS2 won, but in reality, no, in the action-arcade, the Dreamcast was unbeatable, simply because that machine was designed as a CoinOp and was much easier and simpler to program.
And this made a big contribution, as it was possible to overcome the technical limits in hardware, the hardware was squeezed immediately.
The problem with young people, in my opinion, is that they only grew up with a Super Mario Bros.
----
This is the real Remake of a Chip called Paula.
And the author is the one who made Factor5 famous.
Not an idiotic boy, who likes to spoil with his "remix" the most beautiful songs that history has given us.
[YouTube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xAD9qf-M_WQ[/YouTube]
oldyz
Well-known member
stin
Fantastic song, & ultimately it think that most Genesis / Snes game's are what ultimately should sound like when it comes to their music....
now this next video - i agree with this guy , but only about 60 to 70% (read the description)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au_CTlKU_7o
any way here is my take on this:
Yes the SNES can mimic the Genesis, but I also believe that the Genesis is capable of mimicking the SNES - that said it will take more work -
special cartridge hardware, programming tricks involving the CPU, etc etc, & after all that, there could be issues in some cases where Sound might be limited to MONO.
One thing that would be very interesting to see is a working DOOM version in the Sega genesis - just the curiosity alone of what the music would sound like (under those very restricting technical limits- since a lot of work & heavy lifting would have to take place to make the levels run)
& no the 32x version does not count - it would have to be a genesis cartridge - with extra chips?
yes all the existing stuff we know enhanced games ( no new stuff)
Regarding my comment on Dolby & i suggest to Damon Caskey that this particular topic could be interesting for another thread
my only experience of Dolby 5.1 was with a pc game, that for the life of me i do not even know what it was - but basically in this game you could hear enemie sounds coming from the back & sound would pan from the back to the front & from left to right.
I did not focus on the Music tho - unfortunately.
There is a bunch of SNES & N64 games with Dolby sound, it would be interesting to explore & see how the sound is supposed to be featured in them.
stin #2
Emulation sometimes is not perfect - Supercontra & Castlevania 4 sound different on the real console - especially some of the sounds.
& even then some songs sound different with Winamp's chiptunes plugin.
also take into account Youtube's compression & your PC's hardware & sound settings.
other factors - bass boosted headphones & how direct your connection is to your console (like i mentioned before - i directly connect the headsets to the RCA's)
last - making one console sound like the other is kind of a pointless exercise - its like trying to make an accoustic guitarr to sound like an electric one,
So having said that - on these next 2 clips i hear things that i like & things that could be better...
i would like other forum members to share thoughts...
Sonic - yes , there is no way to separate Sonic with the Genesis sound but...
https://youtu.be/BPPqpLZejYk
this one has some good elements
Batman - another game that has a great Genesis sountrack, but...
mega man x font:
https://youtu.be/tY_NLFhMDLQ
& here is one of the better Snes marble zones
https://youtu.be/ca9lAqhZmoM
Fantastic song, & ultimately it think that most Genesis / Snes game's are what ultimately should sound like when it comes to their music....
now this next video - i agree with this guy , but only about 60 to 70% (read the description)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au_CTlKU_7o
any way here is my take on this:
Yes the SNES can mimic the Genesis, but I also believe that the Genesis is capable of mimicking the SNES - that said it will take more work -
special cartridge hardware, programming tricks involving the CPU, etc etc, & after all that, there could be issues in some cases where Sound might be limited to MONO.
One thing that would be very interesting to see is a working DOOM version in the Sega genesis - just the curiosity alone of what the music would sound like (under those very restricting technical limits- since a lot of work & heavy lifting would have to take place to make the levels run)
& no the 32x version does not count - it would have to be a genesis cartridge - with extra chips?
yes all the existing stuff we know enhanced games ( no new stuff)
Regarding my comment on Dolby & i suggest to Damon Caskey that this particular topic could be interesting for another thread
my only experience of Dolby 5.1 was with a pc game, that for the life of me i do not even know what it was - but basically in this game you could hear enemie sounds coming from the back & sound would pan from the back to the front & from left to right.
I did not focus on the Music tho - unfortunately.
There is a bunch of SNES & N64 games with Dolby sound, it would be interesting to explore & see how the sound is supposed to be featured in them.
stin #2
Emulation sometimes is not perfect - Supercontra & Castlevania 4 sound different on the real console - especially some of the sounds.
& even then some songs sound different with Winamp's chiptunes plugin.
also take into account Youtube's compression & your PC's hardware & sound settings.
other factors - bass boosted headphones & how direct your connection is to your console (like i mentioned before - i directly connect the headsets to the RCA's)
last - making one console sound like the other is kind of a pointless exercise - its like trying to make an accoustic guitarr to sound like an electric one,
So having said that - on these next 2 clips i hear things that i like & things that could be better...
i would like other forum members to share thoughts...
Sonic - yes , there is no way to separate Sonic with the Genesis sound but...
https://youtu.be/BPPqpLZejYk
this one has some good elements
Batman - another game that has a great Genesis sountrack, but...
mega man x font:
https://youtu.be/tY_NLFhMDLQ
& here is one of the better Snes marble zones
https://youtu.be/ca9lAqhZmoM
The simulators that I mentioned are perfect, you can also set the various Gaussian filters and various sampling frequencies and so on.
You're right for the different pc configurations, but there, it depends largely on the audio drivers.
I generally only use the basic drivers, those in machine language for the audio device (system sounds only) and I avoid the frontend junk like the plague.
PS: You mentioned the 32X, but that wasn't a chip, it was an entire 32Bit console on a Genesis.
You're right for the different pc configurations, but there, it depends largely on the audio drivers.
I generally only use the basic drivers, those in machine language for the audio device (system sounds only) and I avoid the frontend junk like the plague.
PS: You mentioned the 32X, but that wasn't a chip, it was an entire 32Bit console on a Genesis.
stin you mentioned programing and how each machine could be pushed to its limits to achieve close to the other - but that's not what I was talking about. I'm a programmer by trade - of course I know the code trumps hardware - to a point.
What I was saying is from Nintendo's perspective, it didn't have to be that way. Had they not turned away from their original plans to use a 10Mhz Motorola 68000, and also not forced filtered sound output, the SNES would be the objectively more capable system - full stop. Anything and everything the Gen could do, the SNES would do better, and at the same cost! Moreover third parties could upgrade their existing Genesis library to the SNES with 0 effort. Basically, Sega wouldn't have a marketing leg to stand on, and the Gen would be gone in a year.
Of course that didn't happen and we wound up with two very different machines that proved to be a fairly even match for each other, with respective advantages/disadvantages in a given genre.
Most would agree the gaming market is better off for it. Nintendo got shook up a bit and everyone stepped up their game (pun intended). But then again, had Nintendo done things right on their end and forced Sega into third party status earlier, you might have seen some amazing Sega games on the SNES. Who is to say?
DC
What I was saying is from Nintendo's perspective, it didn't have to be that way. Had they not turned away from their original plans to use a 10Mhz Motorola 68000, and also not forced filtered sound output, the SNES would be the objectively more capable system - full stop. Anything and everything the Gen could do, the SNES would do better, and at the same cost! Moreover third parties could upgrade their existing Genesis library to the SNES with 0 effort. Basically, Sega wouldn't have a marketing leg to stand on, and the Gen would be gone in a year.
Of course that didn't happen and we wound up with two very different machines that proved to be a fairly even match for each other, with respective advantages/disadvantages in a given genre.
Most would agree the gaming market is better off for it. Nintendo got shook up a bit and everyone stepped up their game (pun intended). But then again, had Nintendo done things right on their end and forced Sega into third party status earlier, you might have seen some amazing Sega games on the SNES. Who is to say?
DC
Damon Caskey,
the Snes cpu, was designed to work at 21 mhz (theoretically, it had to be better than Motorola), but strangely it always worked at 3.58, due to the internal registers of architecture, a higher speed would surely have led to data corruption , along with the memory bottleneck.
Let's face it, it was fast and badly made hardware.
That's why special chips like SuperFX were invented, which were math co-processors.
The simple truth in my opinion is that Nintendo did not have the experience of a SEGA in the hardware field and in the CoinOp commercial field.
So much so, that then I look for an agreement with Sony, then failed, from there the birth of a PSX, which we then know how it reduced a Nintendo64.
The only first machine worthy of being called a console for me was the GameCube.
the Snes cpu, was designed to work at 21 mhz (theoretically, it had to be better than Motorola), but strangely it always worked at 3.58, due to the internal registers of architecture, a higher speed would surely have led to data corruption , along with the memory bottleneck.
Let's face it, it was fast and badly made hardware.
That's why special chips like SuperFX were invented, which were math co-processors.
The simple truth in my opinion is that Nintendo did not have the experience of a SEGA in the hardware field and in the CoinOp commercial field.
So much so, that then I look for an agreement with Sony, then failed, from there the birth of a PSX, which we then know how it reduced a Nintendo64.
The only first machine worthy of being called a console for me was the GameCube.
oldyz
Well-known member
stin
poetic justice?
the N64 ended up being a technical Underdog & only the best programmers were able to take full advantage of it, & the cherry on top:
a black console that ended up with a disk drive add-on
Damon Caskey
Just occurred to me... it would be an awesome "crossover" event to (& i hate myself a bit for saying this the consoles promotion)
Nintendo classic games on the Genesis mini - Sega Genesis games on the mini SNES -
i don't know if both companies have a "training" program or something like that, but it would be interesting to see games designed to take advantage & work around the limitations of both machines to feature unique ports of known games
now more music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJxmBVbqBbo
poetic justice?
the N64 ended up being a technical Underdog & only the best programmers were able to take full advantage of it, & the cherry on top:
a black console that ended up with a disk drive add-on
Damon Caskey
Just occurred to me... it would be an awesome "crossover" event to (& i hate myself a bit for saying this the consoles promotion)
Nintendo classic games on the Genesis mini - Sega Genesis games on the mini SNES -
i don't know if both companies have a "training" program or something like that, but it would be interesting to see games designed to take advantage & work around the limitations of both machines to feature unique ports of known games
now more music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJxmBVbqBbo
oldyz said:
Ehh, pointless exercise IMO. To me pushing limits is about raising the current bar or creating a fun experience. But that was raised several times over. I love reading and studying older consoles and the tricks done with them. But going back and writing for one? That makes about as much sense to me as going back to the 2600 would then. If someone else wants to, cool for them, but count me out.
Great track... but better just because that stage has the most epic fail boss in gaming history:
**dramatic magical summon** "YAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I won't ANYONE step in THIS area!!!"....then you immediately step in the area and b*** slap him. "AGGH!" ;D
oldyz
Well-known member
nah - i'm not confused about it
its just that in my opinion i don't like visible pixels or shadow separations.
i like my graphics to look like tiny frescoes instead of watercolors, even if it takes blurring or high rate frame-rate tricks to accomplish the task (In the case of 60 frames per second "ghosts")
back then Genesis developers took full advantage of how scan lines worked & created transparency & gradients when the system was not capable of doing it , or more likely - in a way that it did not have to use anymore resources....
About developing games....
I'm first & foremost a player -by the way, I stopped being a hardcore gamer because @ the end of the day its pointless
SUre now-days you can play on twitch & make money that way... but i don't want something i enjoy to become a job
thus - developing kind of kills the gamer side of me because it's similar...
that does not negate the fact that i can tell what i would like to add to a game tho - all games have elements that could be better.
Personally i like games that feature randomness all over the place, The antithesis(?) to Speed Runners.
games that are never the same every-time a level loads, where music is varied &organic, where enemies do unexpected things that take not only skill but a certain amount of luck are my favorite kinds....
& multiplayer - couch multiplayer, & the more the merrier
being skillful @ programming & technical specs helps a lot, but it is not the only way that you can develop games.
The same way a king or lord can have an skilled artist create a timeless work of art, so can anyone with enough lucky circumstances have a group of programmers artists & musicians create a great game.
that is why i hate money laundering schemes in the Art/music world.... sure the money is from evil sources, but dammit , at least make sure it gives great results
One thing i have run into around modding forums all over is the following
"i want to make sure that the graphics/sound/music/animation/ are perfect"
The perfect is the enemy of the good, & nothing is perfect anyway...
Now for a bit of a stretch:
Genesis trying to sound like SNES:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgIfcmDI9K4
A.K.A Snes triyng to sound like real music
and for more music:
(by the way im sorry Genesis, you sound better than the Gameboy Advance)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQxs-WEFRJY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmOWW9MN1BU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkNtBI4o_w
& remember - there is no BAd Castlevanias - only system limitations
its just that in my opinion i don't like visible pixels or shadow separations.
i like my graphics to look like tiny frescoes instead of watercolors, even if it takes blurring or high rate frame-rate tricks to accomplish the task (In the case of 60 frames per second "ghosts")
back then Genesis developers took full advantage of how scan lines worked & created transparency & gradients when the system was not capable of doing it , or more likely - in a way that it did not have to use anymore resources....
About developing games....
I'm first & foremost a player -by the way, I stopped being a hardcore gamer because @ the end of the day its pointless
SUre now-days you can play on twitch & make money that way... but i don't want something i enjoy to become a job
thus - developing kind of kills the gamer side of me because it's similar...
that does not negate the fact that i can tell what i would like to add to a game tho - all games have elements that could be better.
Personally i like games that feature randomness all over the place, The antithesis(?) to Speed Runners.
games that are never the same every-time a level loads, where music is varied &organic, where enemies do unexpected things that take not only skill but a certain amount of luck are my favorite kinds....
& multiplayer - couch multiplayer, & the more the merrier
being skillful @ programming & technical specs helps a lot, but it is not the only way that you can develop games.
The same way a king or lord can have an skilled artist create a timeless work of art, so can anyone with enough lucky circumstances have a group of programmers artists & musicians create a great game.
that is why i hate money laundering schemes in the Art/music world.... sure the money is from evil sources, but dammit , at least make sure it gives great results
One thing i have run into around modding forums all over is the following
"i want to make sure that the graphics/sound/music/animation/ are perfect"
The perfect is the enemy of the good, & nothing is perfect anyway...
Now for a bit of a stretch:
Genesis trying to sound like SNES:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgIfcmDI9K4
A.K.A Snes triyng to sound like real music
and for more music:
(by the way im sorry Genesis, you sound better than the Gameboy Advance)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQxs-WEFRJY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmOWW9MN1BU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRkNtBI4o_w
& remember - there is no BAd Castlevanias - only system limitations
oldyz said:
Bravo, you begin to understand how hardware should be exploited.
If this was to be the music created by a chip, which tried to sound natural, I'm going to throw myself in the toilet:
[YouTube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=59rrADarhcc[/YouTube]
I prefer this version:
[YouTube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=5eiJ0Z5oKy0[/YouTube]
Or this, seen and considered, which speaks of naturalness and melodies intruments:
[YouTube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=1JPGQL1-bS0[/YouTube]
And of course, a SEGA did not have the arrogance of a Nintendo, which hid its ugly figures behind sheets of paper.
[YouTube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=JEB3GwDmjyM[/YouTube]
-----
Of the Castlevania series, the only music left in my heart was this:
[YouTube]https://youtube.com/watch?v=6GXNDugXvqE[/YouTube]
Thanks to OKI Sound Chip.
And of course, an example of an 8-bit machine, which kicked a Genesis and Snes.
oldyz
Well-known member
Well, when talking about the realness of music there is layers or levels
I have it like this -
1 the maximum level of "realness" is a live orchestra performance with no electric instruments, human voice & organic noise (animals, chirps, coconut shells, etc)
2 a live orchestra that combines the 2 - synthesizers, electric guitars, theremins, with traditional instruments & voices...
3 a live orchestra but with all synths & electric instruments
4 a high quality recording of # 1
5 a high quality recording of # 2
6 A high quality recording of # 3
7 A HQ Studio recording & manipulation of #1
8 A HQ Studio recording & manipulation of #2
9 A HQ Studio recording & manipulation of #3
10 a lower quality recording of # 1 (vinyl, cassette, mp3)
11 a lower quality recording of # 2 (vinyl, cassette, mp3)
12 a lower quality recording of # 3 (vinyl, cassette, mp3)
14 a lower quality studio copy or recording of # 7,8,9 (vinyl, cassette, mp3)
13 Sample based synthesizers chips/soundcards/midi
15 non-sample based synthezisers chips/soundcards/midis
16 8 bit music (still synth , but lower rate i suppose?)
17 pings & pongs of the old atari
These "levels of realness" are
the reason i did not include final fight cd, Sonic cd & Rondo of blood PC engine in to the discussion, it's because they are all based on levels 4 to 9 of music.
they are pre-recordings - they sound great - but they are not "generated" or manipulated in real time.
that is why Sonic cd had no accelerated version of the current level's music, it would have been a bit taxing for the reading lens OR the hardware was not capable to do it on cue effectively without sounding odd or delayed.
& here is the main reasons why i like video game music based on midi/samples/chips - its because they have more plasticity - just like a live orchestra, but with less hassle.
In my own twisted world, i would have Live human beings at my disposal available to perform the music in real time while i sit & play the game on a hollographic big screen..
think of silent movies in the 1920's that had musicians play live music, can you imagine the Pain in the butt those where?
rehearsals, inconsistencies , varying quality?
so the humane thing to do & the next best thing is Sampling (sampling)?
(after all - if you want whales & lion roars to be featured as instruments, i think samples is the way to go)
unfortunately, there is drawbacks.... Hardware limitations.
i can't say the correct number for certain, but i suppose that a 100 real instrument orchestra to be properly imitated, you would need a Synth/chip/midi that features 100 different channels with high quality samples....
you could go even further & have a channel for each guitar string effect if you want (tapping, 'scratching')
but once you have that, the musical possibilities within a single level of a game are endless... & almost "real" (levels 1 to 3)
I have it like this -
1 the maximum level of "realness" is a live orchestra performance with no electric instruments, human voice & organic noise (animals, chirps, coconut shells, etc)
2 a live orchestra that combines the 2 - synthesizers, electric guitars, theremins, with traditional instruments & voices...
3 a live orchestra but with all synths & electric instruments
4 a high quality recording of # 1
5 a high quality recording of # 2
6 A high quality recording of # 3
7 A HQ Studio recording & manipulation of #1
8 A HQ Studio recording & manipulation of #2
9 A HQ Studio recording & manipulation of #3
10 a lower quality recording of # 1 (vinyl, cassette, mp3)
11 a lower quality recording of # 2 (vinyl, cassette, mp3)
12 a lower quality recording of # 3 (vinyl, cassette, mp3)
14 a lower quality studio copy or recording of # 7,8,9 (vinyl, cassette, mp3)
13 Sample based synthesizers chips/soundcards/midi
15 non-sample based synthezisers chips/soundcards/midis
16 8 bit music (still synth , but lower rate i suppose?)
17 pings & pongs of the old atari
These "levels of realness" are
the reason i did not include final fight cd, Sonic cd & Rondo of blood PC engine in to the discussion, it's because they are all based on levels 4 to 9 of music.
they are pre-recordings - they sound great - but they are not "generated" or manipulated in real time.
that is why Sonic cd had no accelerated version of the current level's music, it would have been a bit taxing for the reading lens OR the hardware was not capable to do it on cue effectively without sounding odd or delayed.
& here is the main reasons why i like video game music based on midi/samples/chips - its because they have more plasticity - just like a live orchestra, but with less hassle.
In my own twisted world, i would have Live human beings at my disposal available to perform the music in real time while i sit & play the game on a hollographic big screen..
think of silent movies in the 1920's that had musicians play live music, can you imagine the Pain in the butt those where?
rehearsals, inconsistencies , varying quality?
so the humane thing to do & the next best thing is Sampling (sampling)?
(after all - if you want whales & lion roars to be featured as instruments, i think samples is the way to go)
unfortunately, there is drawbacks.... Hardware limitations.
i can't say the correct number for certain, but i suppose that a 100 real instrument orchestra to be properly imitated, you would need a Synth/chip/midi that features 100 different channels with high quality samples....
you could go even further & have a channel for each guitar string effect if you want (tapping, 'scratching')
but once you have that, the musical possibilities within a single level of a game are endless... & almost "real" (levels 1 to 3)
I have included the PCengine, because it is the only one that did not have a chip dedicated to sound manipulation in hardware.
It was all left to the CPU and the beautiful pre-recorded pieces, however, had to take into account the limitations of the additional chip.
But even a midi synth could be created from a SID 6581/8580.
It was all left to the CPU and the beautiful pre-recorded pieces, however, had to take into account the limitations of the additional chip.
But even a midi synth could be created from a SID 6581/8580.
oldyz
Well-known member
stin said:
Well, now that you mention it....
Sonic CD did have some tracks that where not pre-recorded - in fact if i'm not mistaken & i think now that it is a very clever "message" from the musician...
the tracks of the "past" levels -
all other tracks can be played back on a PC or regular CD player , but a bunch of them can only be played within game OR the music menu.
altho... did the sega CD add on an expansion for the Synthesis?
if you take a look back at the previous post about levels, i'm going to add more detailed "level"
because even tho DK country is the SNES game that has the Best sound & music....
it is a level 10 to 14 on the "realness" scale
there could be an argument for a higher level - since it seems that the gaussian filter seems to work with it well, giving it that warmish & a bit haunting Phonograph/vinyl "feel" (at least to me)
sometime s musicians create tracks or sounds that are supposed to be intentionally Low quality
O Ilusionista
Captain 100K
O Ilusionista,
Nothing happened.
oldyz,
In reality, the Sega-CD was already a Genesis with a player, but at the SEGA of america, not to make the usual figure, they had the "brilliant" idea of making it an expansion for the classic Genesis.
The audio chip already provided 8 stereo channels (10 with the DCSG) and the rca output, which was added to Yamaha 's 6 FM channels.
It had its own CPU, its own GPU and its own memory.
In fact, the classic Genesis was its expansion lol!
A Popful Mail, was the typical game that made use of tracks from CD and the internal Genesis Chip.
That's why, for a long time, it was one of the non-playable titles in emulation, there was no audio synchrony and the game did not start.
I advise you to play it, because it is the most beautiful version, among those produced for the various consoles.
Nothing happened.
oldyz,
In reality, the Sega-CD was already a Genesis with a player, but at the SEGA of america, not to make the usual figure, they had the "brilliant" idea of making it an expansion for the classic Genesis.
The audio chip already provided 8 stereo channels (10 with the DCSG) and the rca output, which was added to Yamaha 's 6 FM channels.
It had its own CPU, its own GPU and its own memory.
In fact, the classic Genesis was its expansion lol!
A Popful Mail, was the typical game that made use of tracks from CD and the internal Genesis Chip.
That's why, for a long time, it was one of the non-playable titles in emulation, there was no audio synchrony and the game did not start.
I advise you to play it, because it is the most beautiful version, among those produced for the various consoles.
oldyz
Well-known member
Belated response bucause of research....Damon Caskey said:
Notable Boss fails are sort of rare....
Nightslashers has a boss that i consider a big joke too, with a similar pattern , its so much of a joke that i don't think i will ever fix it, just make it even more prominent in future updates...
next here is an interesting "challenge"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1XlVX1UwSU
stin
When talking about bad decisions , i cant understand what went wrong with some 32x games, we have games like
Knuckles chaotix WARNING: (complete sountrack long video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqSS0KSQuwo
and then this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edN0SDOkv3w
Just kidding - THIS is the real one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2oyweqZ7WM
fortunately someone went ahead and made a proper genesis versions:
(from good to best)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGPTQAmq9Rk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN6r-id3r2s
https://youtu.be/OGuVMClIYic?t=64
Here is the SNES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAk_4hYvOjA
& the 3DO's - which suffers a bit from what Final Fight cd suffers too - (a bit too slow at times compared to the original tunes/or level "speed")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m35pIk5wfNk&list=RDbrBQVcf37Xc&index=6
Bonus "Doom" content:
https://youtu.be/UM5TMHsUSww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmFnyT_t9dc
oldyz
Well-known member
Some 32x music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7nMetbVXeM
now i wonder what capabilities the 32x that we never got to see/hear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2d28Df0-xI
because from what i have heard so far it seems that the 32x could at least unleash the full potential of the music chips in the genesis (like the metamorphic force tune back in the other pos)t - some comments about complex Genesis tunes say that the console would not be able to have the more complex music & a game at the same time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7nMetbVXeM
now i wonder what capabilities the 32x that we never got to see/hear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2d28Df0-xI
because from what i have heard so far it seems that the 32x could at least unleash the full potential of the music chips in the genesis (like the metamorphic force tune back in the other pos)t - some comments about complex Genesis tunes say that the console would not be able to have the more complex music & a game at the same time